Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-26-2007, 01:53 PM
transced transced is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 17
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default PC-BSD's dirty secret - why it's worse than Windows
Nobody replied to my question about what a PC-BSD upgrade does to installed ports and packages.

I went ahead and installed 1.4 as an upgrade/repair over 1.4-Beta

The process trashed all installed ports/packages - hours and hours of configuration.

Windows alllows to perform an in-place upgrade, which means a binary upgrade of the OS, while installed applications are not affected.

PC-BSD documentation doesn't even warn that installed ports/packages will be trashed during an upgrade - the least it should do.

FreeBSD allows to perform binary upgrade without trashing installed ports/packages.

For all that PCBSD offers, it is sadly lacking in the upgrade process.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-26-2007, 02:55 PM
Hlebarkata_321 Hlebarkata_321 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Sofia
Posts: 229
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default
Well PC- BSD id s thought to use PBI as Software Installer...
And people who use ports are often advanced asnd You would know what this may cause...
And why Windows is worse than any other OS we all know I thing
-Bugs
-virus
-slow
-ugly (yes ugly too)
-closed
-and muuuuch muuuuuch more
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-26-2007, 03:47 PM
Tanked Tanked is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 107
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default
I was under the impression that an upgrade from 1.4 BETA to 1.4 RELEASE is not supported; if this is the case then you've simply shot yourself in the foot and you have no-one else to blame except yourself. If this upgrade path IS supported then the devs have a problem on their hands.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-26-2007, 04:09 PM
transced transced is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 17
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default
After reinstalling some ports, packages under 1.4 final, tried performing a repair of 1.4. (repairing 1.4 final over 1.4 final). Again, ports/packages are trashed, only PBI's are saved. This is very bad and makes PCBSD non-maintainable.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-26-2007, 04:23 PM
Oko Oko is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 679
Thanks: 2
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default
Originally Posted by transced
After reinstalling some ports, packages under 1.4 final, tried performing a repair of 1.4. (repairing 1.4 final over 1.4 final). Again, ports/packages are trashed, only PBI's are saved. This is very bad and makes PCBSD non-maintainable.
I would strongly suggest that you keep your Windows which is as you already incorrectly concluded much BETTER operating system.

Just upgraded all my userland on FreeBSD (over 1200 applications which work properly). It is really non-maintainable.
__________________
OKO
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-26-2007, 04:49 PM
transced transced is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 17
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default
That's part of my point - FreeBSD can be upgraded without losing ports./packages but not PC-BSD (unless you upgrade FreeBSD style).
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-26-2007, 05:17 PM
Solarin's Avatar
Solarin Solarin is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 743
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default
Originally Posted by transced
That's part of my point - FreeBSD can be upgraded without losing ports./packages but not PC-BSD (unless you upgrade FreeBSD style).
The reason ports are removed during an upgrade, is because PC-BSD isn't just FreeBSD. We upgrade your FreeBSD installation, but then we also need to roll out a huge bunch of new packages to your system. If we didn't remove the old ports, many of them would become non-functional as packages they depend on have been changed.

I realise this is a problem, and I have some ideas on how to mitigate the inconvenience, but that's something Kris and I will need to take a look at for the next version.
__________________
Tim McCormick
PC-BSD Lead Developer
tim at pcbsd.org
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-27-2007, 04:46 AM
sblevin sblevin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 909
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default
I believe that PC-BSD is aware that PBI's have been installed (or at least could be easily detected or implemented).

How about a warning in the upgrade options to detect the presence of installed PBI's, and to give a big fat CANCEL option if PBI's are detected - I mean something REALLY impossible to ignore. Some kind of "pkg_add" history or list export to a safe location might be convenient as well before upgrading.

This could also give information about locations that will be preserved, so you can prepare for the upgrade, rather than doing the "silly human nature" thing of just doing it and seeing what will happen.

If your home drive is preserved by default, you could tell people their PBI's will be trashed, so to keep copies of the installs in a safe location, such as their home directory.

Windows does support upgrades, but major re-gutting or version upgrades (98 to 2K, or XP to Vista) is clunky, imports garbage and is slow. It is also far from guaranteed to keep installed softwares functional.

Installing service packs for windows is a different matter. Changing the base version of FreeBSD however, is more akin to changing OS versions than it is to applying a few security updates.

Windows has become the monster that it is as it tries to maintain backward compatibility, which is fine for a couple of versions, but has become a ball and chain in many respects as well.

???????????????????????
Isn't there an appalling and time consuming method of upgrading base FreeBSD versions via recompilation that "may" keep PBI's and ports functional? Could this be offered as an alternative upgrade path?
???????????????????????

I personally feel that *nix is shite at BINARY upgrades the moment you install anything that is not under the direct control and authorship of the company that releases it (ie ports in FreeBSDs case). The way it is dealt with is an individual distributors hacked up method, not a clean and well thought out approach that you can only get by owning and controlling almost everything. FreeBSD does a superb job of looking after itself, as does the linux kernel, AIX etc.

Xandros, Suse, Mandriva, PC-BSD etc all have to maintain a level of comaptibility with not only their core component they are not in control of, but also the spaghetti knot of additional softwares from other vendors, AND their own additions. This is a very impressive feat. Grats guys!

Remember many *nix + open source world combinations are a small core, just the kernel in Linuxs' case, and a cloud of softwares, GUIs and tools from all over the place mashed together. Hacking off, then stitching replacement body parts onto Frankensteins monster is harder and messier than making a nice, fresh, more functional, NEW chimeric abomination : ) The open source monster, the broth of a million chefs will always be a very hard brew to keep fresh. It is a compelling and very notable thing that this is achieved at all.

That being said - I still love PC-BSD, and mega kudos to all involved in its' maintenance and development. Binary style upgrades are very difficult for a software universe (*nix) that still considers compiling software as a normal part of computer usage.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-27-2007, 04:26 PM
DragnLord DragnLord is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: C'ville, Va.
Posts: 695
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default
FreeBSD has the security/freebsd-update port which does a good job doing binary updates on only the FreeBSD base system (it doesn't touch installed ports/packages). There may be a need to to run pkgdb to fix some dependencies if library versions are changed.
__________________
add [SOLVED] to topics with solutions
psearch: use it, love it
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Quick and not so Dirty Way to Configure NFS & Samba graedus Tips and Tricks 7 12-15-2008 12:21 AM
Quick and (not so) dirty way to rip CDs to mp3 by drag and d graedus Tips and Tricks 3 02-14-2008 12:38 AM
Quick and dirty way to transcode video (PCBSD 1.4+) graedus Tips and Tricks 0 02-13-2008 06:45 AM
What's the secret to getting Java to run? Thulemanden PBI Discussion 3 06-23-2007 05:23 PM
Secret KDE hacks caesius The Lounge 14 12-09-2006 06:21 PM


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Copyright 2005-2010, The PC-BSD Project. PC-BSD and the PC-BSD logo are registered trademarks of iXsystems.
All other content is freely available for sharing under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution License.