What makes BSD special?

[franklee]

Ok so Ive been around Slackware Linux for eight years and always loved *nix systems. I didnt have a great deal of luck installing FreeBSD 5.4 or 6.0 but thats due to my own lack of knowledge and subsequently I have read up on BSD terminal commands and the like in an effort to improve. What I would love to hear about, is what you guys and gals think makes PC-BSD special and worth your time?

So far Im loving it, even got bash up and running and PBI's are kewl!

Its just such a nice migration and hassle free for me, coming from slack to PC-BSD.

Why did you choose PC-BSD?

[Charles]

Because I contribute to its development :roll:

[franklee]

Yep well thats an excellent reason, however I guess Im interested in what an end user thinks of PC-BSD and what makes it their choice of BSD distro...

Cheers Ears :P

[B3CK]

I never had any experience with anythin other than Windows, (I don't count Commadore as it is dead). I tried BSD 5.4 and 6.0 but didn't have the time or need to do everything from a terminal. When I stumbled onto PCBSD, and after a little reading, I like the direction it is going, and the security that comes with it. I started with BSD because I liked the security mindset that BSD working around. I just gave up on it due to the fact that if I can have a system with a GUI, I would take that over using a terminal that I have to memorize everything to get one thing to work.

[gnutux]

just because I want to actually use a real UNIX system instead of a clone and I need a faster alternative in system bootup, Linux is a lil' too slow.

gnutux

[franklee]

Ive been using PCBSD for about three days now and have deleted my linux partitions in favour of a GREAT BIG SHINY BSD slice. Its just so damn easy to install this distro....and KDE 3.5 is very pretty.

No crashes yet and its a fine router for three other machines too...groovy.

[gnutux]

ya, same, after installing PCBSD,then reinstaled Linux, Linux read the label as no partitions. PCBSD freaked my hard-drive

gnutux

[scottro]

As someone once said in a mutt vs. pine thread (years ago, when pine was still a contender) people pull up all sorts of technical reasons to justify what is, in the end, an emotional issue.

The BSDs just seem cleaner to me than Linux, perhaps because kernel and userland are integrated, rather than as separated as they are in LInux.

Slack is one of my favorite Linux distros, but even so, especially lately with the initrd stuff, etc--with FreeBSD, there's just one file to really worry about, /etc/rc.conf.

So many of the Linux distros, even Slack, install too much for my taste by default. (PCBSD isn't immune, but I'm talking about its parent FreeBSD--Net and and Open install even less by default).

Slack of course, is known for not handling dependencies--though some ports don't work all the time, in general, with FreeBSD dependencies aren't an issue, the ports take care of it.

It seems (completely subjective, no benchmarks) faster to me than does Linux. Another problem with LInux is that with each distribution, there are that distro's quirks to learn--with RH, for instance, you have to learn about rpms and yum, and even with Slack, the last time I played with it, I had to dig a bit to figure out how to run some things and turn off others at boot. Also, many of the Linux distributions (this doesn't apply to Slack, one of the reasons it remains one of my favorites) put things in peculiar places so if you download something from source, it won't compile without some digging, as it can't find the header files etc where it's expecting to find them.

However to the end user, the result is not going to be that different. Also, of course, there is the fact that I've been using FreeBSD as my primary O/S since 4.3 or 4.4 and I'm used to it. Sometimes, especially on a slow machine, the fact that most things are compiled from source (this applies far less to PCBSD) is a definite minus. At work, where we're throwing some old machines into use as samba file servers, I'll tend to go with ArchLinux and its binary upgrades. Like Slack, it puts things where they should be, so things compiled from source build without problems.

So, to some up--to me, (and of course, this is just an opinion) the BSDs are more logically organized, and seem faster. In the desktop area, I have to admit that LInux is still ahead. (For example, recent upgrades have broken flash for several people, and many of us have to have both the linux-firefox and native firefox installed, as one works well with java and the other with flash).

However, as a sysadmin, I feel more secure running FreeBSD--again, the fact that I'm more familiar with it is probably a HUGE factor in this.

[franklee]

Slacks been my friend for a long time. Infact after Linus Torvalds first offerings, Ive been a Slacker. Suffice to say this BSD is the ONLY reason I have ever found that justifies removing Slack from my Box. I really like PCBSD and the Ports collection is Giant! I havent figured out Pbi installation yet but Im getting there, being able to use Bash is awesome too.

Yeah well Im a BSD convert as of three days ago.

[r21vo]

I love pbi system, even if it sometimes don't work. I like that everyone can contribute their own pbi's, it's just like firefox with extensions idea ;)
I feel PC-BSD can become a great desktop system and would like to help this statement come true.

[sawtooth_ktm]

I prefer FreeBSD over Linux distros and windoze because of these reasons. http://people.freebsd.org/~murray/bsd_flier.html

... And I chose PC-BSD because it is by far the best way to use FreeBSD as a desktop OS.

[Tsuroerusu]

I started playing/using Linux in the end of December 2003, and I had it running as my main operating system in June 2004, and in August 2004 I threw Windows out of my computer and smashed the Windows disk I had.

I started out with Mandrakelinux 10.0 PowerPack, which I really enjoyed using, but in December of 2004, I switched to SUSE Linux, because I liked it's polish, professional look, recent applications and control center.... since then I've been using Linux pretty much exclusivly, although I have been playing with FreeBSD and OpenBSD on a regular basis. Last November I tried replacing SUSE Linux with FreeBSD, because I'd like to try FreeBSD as my primary OS, but my everyday hugely depend on a Java app, Azureus the BitTorrent client, so that was the first problem I ran into, also I didn't like the fact that I needed Linux binary compatibility/emulation for so many of the things I needed, Flash for example I found hard and difficult to handle. And then all of a sudden the system just started being unstable, and in the end it hard crashed on me, leaving the file system corrupt...... I tried reinstalling it, but the darn thing would not stay stable (I tried both FreeBSD 5.4, which seemed the most robust, and also 6.0). After 1½ weeks of messing with it, I couldn't stand it all, honestly I like FreeBSD, I think the ports system is fantastic, the speed and performance is great, but it doesn't matter in end, if the system won't stay stable. So I cleaned my hard drive and reinstalled SUSE Linux 10.0, and I've been happy with it since and look forward, like a child before christmas, to 10.1 :wink: :D :P :lol:

I still like FreeBSD, I have it running on an older machine, I'm currently trying to get it to run on my Xbox, and hopefully, 6.0 will mature more here in 2006, and maybe I'll give it another try, for I'll wait for 6.2 or 6.3, because my last experience with both 5.4 and 6.0 was miserably like all hell.
Currently, Linux is the better choice for me personally, because it stays stable, I've had my current KDE session last 38 days, and still going strong, has great hardware support, and satisfies my day-to-day needs. Also in my everyday life I like having a very complete and mature control center, such as YaST, because on average I only have about 6 - 7 hours of free time every day to relax, surf, check email, eat, do homework and be together with my family, and even though I love hacking system configuration files, I just don't have the time for it. I like the way PC-BSD is going, I think it's a fantastic project, and I'd like to contribute to it, in one way or another, which is why I am here, but at the time of writing it's not what I'd like to run on my primary workstation.

[Charles]

I always give these 2 links:

http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Linux_PR/bsd- ... rison.html (http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Linux_PR/bsd-linux-comparison.html)
http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ra ... linux1.php (http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/rants/bsd4linux/bsd4linux1.php)

[SunnyB]

Two years ago I decided to try FreeBSD. Being an avid Microsoft
advocate I decided to try FreeBSD through VMware. I figured, the
best of both worlds. I liked FreeBSD a lot. It just seemed more
logical than any Linux I had tried. When I heard about PCBSD
a little over 2 months ago I immediately installed it under VMware
and instantly loved it.

It's by far the easiest, most straight forward OS I have worked with.
I will probably never leave Windows but I must admit that PCBSD
installed easier and faster than any Windows version yet.

If those lamers at Autodesk will ever get off of their behind and
offer Autocad ported to BSD, or even a Linux distro, I will be
tempted to turncoat and run from Windows.

[Majorlag]

I'm pretty sure I first tried PCBSD just to check out PBIs. You see, I've been an opponent of using package managers and the like for applications for a long time (they work great for base system though). I'd worked with the ROX filer, Syllable, and MacOS X, all of which use appdirs and thats a great solution, when the unix coders write programs correctly (no hard-coded paths). PBI was a step in the right direction that made comprimises for the hard-coded idiocy so I wanted to try it out. It was really only supposed to be a temporary thing, but I was so impressed by the clean-ness and consistancy of freebsd that I decided to build my own freebsd based desktop system, to that end I created an automatic disk and filesystem detection system called Automagic, which people liked enough that it got integrated into PCBSD. So I've spent a good deal of time working on that trying to get it working well for everybody (still needs a way to use vinum and geom disks, and I'm sure theres some bugs left in it) and have kept PCBSD installed to that end. If I weren't so fussy about default install sizes I'd use PCBSD full time for sure.

[franklee]

cheers! :lol:

[gnutux]

The only downside to BSD is that its too messy and that it doesn't have enough binaries.

Though I still prefer Linux over BSD.

gnutux

[TerryP]

I first heard of FreeBSD when reading about building PCs 1-2 years ago. Other then a Tandy 1000 before I learned to read. I've always had Windows (98 then XP) and the assumption then that all computer stuff is BIG BUCKs so the notion of a FREE anything the size of a OS gave me the thought.

"FreeBSD? Blah must be a piece of crap!"

I was so wrong.

When my life started heading into Programming/WWW/Computer Addiction beyond spending my life gaming. A friend offered some addvice, so I took up C++ (still learning) and chose to go for a Free Unix OS. Was going to repartition the family PC to put on a OS, but that didn't go (Mom) so I ended up with an old PC to do it on.

The only OSes I knew where "Mainstream" where Windows family and the 99% unknown "Linux" so I did home work & tried knoppix on live cd. Oh most thought about Slackware since I read somewhere that it uses a unmodified "vennala" kernel. But.... Being the nutjob I am I wanted a more "pure" Unix like OS that was truer to the old UNIX in it's soul. Found PC-BSD looking for *nix screen shots. Thought holy smokes this makes it look easy!!! (And a good way not to F up the family windows), but still my heart longed for Black Box so I tried to install FreeBSD 6.0 Release on the old PC and at 0400 I nuked my system! Forgot to set my user to "wheel" group, couldn't remember how to su and couldn't get x running or a window manger DL'd. So I said the heck with this and took out my old PC-BSD 1.0RC1 and did it again in the afternoon (1400) was so easy, not a problem till I tried to remove windows and nearly blew my hard drive sky high!!

Thanks to a little segfaulting I've installed PC-BSD about 4-6 times.

I miss the idea of being able to have BlackBox, and now that I know how to use ports/packages I actually prefer packages over PBI. But domesticated KDE'ish FreeBSD works for me.

I dream of building a PC to migrate to, just me and my dream girl of sorts. (SAL 1500) where I can have PC-BSD on my second HD, Windows XP on the primary for gaming. And some nifty FAT's to share stuff.

If not needing KDE ever becomes possible, and I ever find the dang time to work on sharing the printer on windows next desk over I'm a PC-BSD user for life ^_^. While my friends keep telling me "Spidey your ****ing nuts m8" lol.

PS: I hate WINE for gaming - rather just spend the $150 for Windows & give it the primary SATA.

[Tsuroerusu]

PS: I hate WINE for gaming - rather just spend the $150 for Windows & give it the primary SATA.
Or just get a good console, I have the GameCube, I think you can find them used for 50 bucks or 99 brand new.

[TerryP]

I play serious tactical games.

Think 8 men clearing a hostage rescue using real world CQB Tactics as a military unit = My standard day of gaming.


There is no such thing on the consoles, and Rainbow Six 4: Lock Down is a total and complete insult to my genre.

I might add this is off topic ^_^

[robzilla]

I have to say that I am in terms of time relatively new to Linux and BSD's. It all started for me about a year ago. In that time I have pretty much gotten very comfortable with Linux. One problem I had was the fact that I had a laptop with newer hardware which always seemd to cause issues. Over the past year all of those issues have been resolved in Linux. I have tried Desktop BSD and FreeBSd and PCBSD and none of them would install. They would all just freeze on initial boot up before I could install anything. It was not until PCBSD RC-2 that I could even install a bsd. Also it seems each time I install PCBSD it installs differently. It ussually takes two times for it to install correctly. It is a fast install but it has issues with my hardware?? I really like the idea of using a more close to real unix system and the fact that bsd is an operating system and not a kernel. I also like the pbi's and the PCBSD way of minimal system packages so I can choose what I want and don't want on my machine. I think in time this will be an operating system that will really compete with the big others out there. It seems as though I am back to square one as I was with Linux a year ago. I mean x does not configure as many times as I try I can't get it right! My own ineptness may be to blame. There are other issues as well. Linux just seems to be complete. I mean anything I could do in Windows I can do in Linux with not much hassle. One issue I have had with Linux is that I have found it is not as stable as people make it out to be. Different filesystems and distros and kernel choices can make a big difference. Some I have found to be very solid and others pretty bad. The other advantage to BSD is as I think more reliable. So I see a great big potential with PCBSD and I hope and want to see it blossom! Right now it is too early in development as far as drivers, hardware support and ease of use for the average end user. That will change I hope. I think if any group can do it it will be the developers here at PCBSD. Please keep up the great work and make BSD for the average joe!

Robzilla

[franklee]

Well PC BSD is as close to perfect as Ive come with BSD out of the box so to speak. I get everything done with bugger all configuration and still have time to browse, play and get some work done in the same day as an install, which is quite unlike Net, Free or Open in my experience.

Having Open Office in Pbi's is excellent tho I would prefer to have the Koffice package preconfigured through Kde.

Cheers :lol:

[gnutux]

Actually, I found another downside, PCBSD occasionally crashes with a kernel trap 12 whenever trying to shutdown, then I have to force it to shutdown without having it restarting.

Crash percentage:
SuSE LINUX 10.0: 1% (only when my X server hangs my mouse and keyboard)
PCBSD RC2: 20% (kernel dies)
Windows XP SP2: 60% (memory management error, poor memory handling and kernel dies)

Conclusion: Overall, I still find Linux better in reliability and overall performance. BSD is great in bootup time and memory management, but there's still many nicks and nacks to fix.

gnutux

[DrJ]

Crash percentage:
SuSE LINUX 10.0: 1% (only when my X server hangs my mouse and keyboard)
PCBSD RC2: 20% (kernel dies)
Windows XP SP2: 60% (memory management error, poor memory handling and kernel dies)

Those are really high crash numbers. Really high. For me, the breakdown is roughly:

FreeBSD 6.0-i386: crashed only when I tried to configure one poorly-documented program. No other crashes at all -- machine pushed hard.
FreeBSD 6.0-SPARC: never crashed -- headless file server.
PC-BSD: never crashed, but it is a backup machine so it is not pushed hard.
Win 98SE: crashes maybe twice a year.
Win NT4.0: never crashed, but not used much.
Win XP SP2: crashed once in two and a half years, and it is pushed hard.

"Crashing" for these purposes includes freezing or spontaneous rebooting. Stable hardware helps a lot...

DrJ

[mal.exe]

"Crashing" for these purposes includes freezing or spontaneous rebooting. Stable hardware helps a lot...
DrJ

This very true. A lot of people use defective hardware without their knowledge !

[gnutux]

no, Linux works PERFECT on my hardware. It's just that for some ODD reason, BSD occasionally fails on shutdown ??!?!!

gnutux

[DrJ]

No offense intended to you or your hardware, and I know that the percentages you gave are very rough.

Still, a 1% failure rate is about 3 times per year (your Linux case) if you use it 300 days per year. That is far from perfect, at least to me. The 20% and 60% figures you cite for PC-BSD and XP are truly terrible. Either you exagerate, or something is not right either with your hardware or how the software is installed.

The worst stability I've seen is back in the days when I used FreeBSD 5.2.1 and the ULE scheduler. That would lock up once every three or four weeks (I think it was the scheduler) and that was about the darkest time for FreeBSD stability. 4.8 was perfect (namely, no crashes at all) and even my old MP/M S-100 system only locked twice over the years I used it. The fan filter plugged and it overheated.

Likewise, I've often heard people complain about Windows (and 98 in particular). They have worked very well for me, and overall I think XP has been the most stable system I have used over an extended period of time. FreeBSD now is back up there, but much of the 5.x time was painful.

Regarding your specific concern for PC-BSD, I've never seen that issue so I can't help you to diagnose it. Sorry! You might want to try one of the FreeBSD mailing lists if you want to diagnose it. Since what you describe really is FreeBSD and not PC-BSD (in all probability) you may well be served better there.

I've no intent to fan flame wars. Stability is important to me, and more so than speed. So I'm always surprised (and discouraged, actually) when I hear that others are having a hard time with it.

DrJ

[gnutux]

maybe it is a lil' too exaggerated.

100% scenario in my normal usage:
10-15% for PC-BSD RC2 (last crash was because of shutting down)
40-45% Windows XP (last crash was because of memory locks, overload and kernel faults)
SuSE Linux 10.0 is still 1% (last crash was because of VMWare pulled my X server with it.)

gnutux

[DrJ]

Well, that's still not very good.

Your hardware basically seems stable because of the Linux data if the only things that pull down the system are in the vein of VMWare bringing down X. That does happen, though since 6.0 that has never brought down my system.

On the others, something must be misconfigured, or they happen to stress things that Linux does not. I'd be surprised at the latter.

As I mentioned, if you want to track down the kernel trap, you'd probably be better off directing things to a FreeBSD-oriented list. You may not care if the only time this happens is at shutdown. Still, something's not right. To start with, I'd suggest freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, which may be a bit general. If it is, they will redirect you to the right list.

DrJ

[DrJ]

It occurs to me that you may not be interested in chasing your PC-BSD bug. I'm used to doing it, but I sure do understand those who don't.

Have you reported this here as a bug? Then maybe some of the experts here will have a look at it and be able to respond. OTOH, if you can patch and compile a kernel, and are willing to do so, the BSD list I suggested can get you started to fixing it.

DrJ